Vous ai-je laissées assez de temps ?

[corgwin24]

English Translation

Did I give you enough time?

laisser
verbe transitif
B. DONNER, CREER

1. [accorder] to leave
   laisse-lui le temps de le faire = leave ou give her time to do it
   © Larousse 2014

[morbrorper]

This is another sentence that begins with the dative, right? I wonder, should the participle really conform to the number and gender of the indirect object? I think this is different to “Vous ai-je laissées seules ?”.

[yottapolyglot]

@morbrorper

This is another sentence that begins with the dative, right?

That’s one way to look at it. When I learned grammar, we mostly broke things down in terms of grammatical functions rather than cases, so when I see a french sentence I am thinking: Sujet / Verbe/ Complément(s) instead of Nominative, accusative, dative…

So in this sentence “vous” = complément d’objet indirect / or indirect object, as you said.

@morbrorper

I wonder, should the participle really conform to the number and gender of the indirect object?

No, I think it should be “laissé”.

@morbrorper

I think this is different to “Vous ai-je laissées seules ?”.

Right. In this sentence, “vous” is a direct object and it is before the auxiliary, so if “vous” stands for a group of girls/women then I think this sentence is fine.

[morbrorper]

@yottapolyglot

I think it should be “laissé”.

I agree, but the Tatoeba sentence is by the renowned contributor sacredceltic, and it has a couple of translations from other reliable contributors. There are also a number of parallel translations, with all the permutations of gender and number, along with allouer instead of laisser.

@yottapolyglot

When I learned grammar, we mostly broke things down in terms of grammatical functions rather than cases

That’s a more useful approach, I think, since different languages use different cases for the same grammatical function.

[corgwin24]

@morbrorper

@yottapolyglot

When I learned grammar, we mostly broke things down in terms of grammatical functions rather than cases

That’s a more useful approach, I think, since different languages use different cases for the same grammatical function.

I had never heard the word DATIVE until morbrorper used it the other day. So that promptly sent me down the rabbit hole to learn all about it. (an hour of my life that I will never get back.)

And we already know that there are certain translators who think that grammar rules are for chumps. So then we have to examine things a bit more closely.

[yottapolyglot]

@morbrorper

That’s a more useful approach, I think, since different languages use different cases for the same grammatical function.

@corgwin24

And we already know that there are certain translators who think that grammar rules are for chumps.

I have spent quite some time studying “grammar(s)” over the years. Already as a kid studying my native language, I found it interesting. I think I enjoyed it because it gave me that very satisfying feeling of understanding how things (in this case, a language) worked.

Now… If by grammar we mean the “rules” of a language, is the study (i.e. conscious learning) of grammar useful to acquire a 2nd language?

Could it actually be detrimental?

If it is useful, it is necessary?

Many people interested in language learning in general, seem to feel quite strongly about the role of grammar in particular.

I’m not sure how to answer any of these questions. All I know for sure is that I still enjoy it today, mostly for the same reason I did back then.

[yottapolyglot]

@morbrorper

There are also a number of parallel translations, with all the permutations of gender and number, along with allouer instead of laisser.

All of them by the same author as far as I can tell (speaking about the French sentences/variations).

I may be missing something, but I still think there should be no agreement in any of these.